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Thread: health reform passed

  1. #11
    Senior Member ~Amy~'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purestone2004 View Post
    thanks for making a clear point . I had sorta thought that was going on (or had heard) An understanding I had was that most weren't opposed to reforming the system but were opposed to the proposal that was put forth. I guess my thought always is that if any mother has to look at a sick child and wonder if they can afford to take them to a doctor, then something REALLY needs to be done. Also though as my husband reminds me we pay more taxes in Canada to support our system but in our house we don't mind if it helps the masses (just talking for our house not making a Canadian generalization). Having health care as a "for profit" business gives me the heepe jeepes.
    All states are a little different though. Here in MN, we have state health care law that prohibits a for-profit insurance company selling insurance within the state. All of our HMO's, health plans, etc. here are all non-profit and regulated by the state of MN. If their "reserves" get too high, then that money must be put back into healthcare (decrease in member premiums, classes for diabetes care, etc.) for their members. Also all members vote for the BOD of the health plan and are encourage to attend the company's annual meeting every year. These are just a few of the things that our state does differently. I am very happy with my health plan and the way our state handles health care.

    Yes, there is a need for reform in other states but this is not the bill and should not be pushed through so hastily just so members of Congress can "make history". Yes, I've read the bill and understand it - I worked in legal/gov't relations at a MN non-profit HMO for almost 10 years and am well aware of the regulations.
    ~Amy~ - 35th trip to Aruba: New Years Eve 2017/2018 -- Zihuatanejo, MX: March 2018 -- Ireland: June/July 2018 -- 36th trip to Aruba: Sept. 2018




  2. #12
    Senior Member purestone2004's Avatar
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    I guess that is one of the confusing things is that every state can be different. So I assume then this is a country wide sweeping bill. Here every province does have there own system but they essentially all work the same.

  3. #13
    Senior Member purestone2004's Avatar
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    Oh also though in your state what if people can't afford the insurance? I think there is government run if you are on assistance? but what if you fall in the middle?

  4. #14
    Senior Member ~Amy~'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purestone2004 View Post
    Oh also though in your state what if people can't afford the insurance? I think there is government run if you are on assistance? but what if you fall in the middle?
    We have a few state run programs - one is called MinnesotaCare and the other is GAMC (General Assistance Medical Care.) You do have to qualify based on you situation (income level, employer doesn't offer insurance, etc.) and you pay on a sliding scale based on your income.

    One thing that does need to be changed is that alot of immigrants (both legal and illegal) do not sign up for any health care and use hospitals as their "primary care doctor". Hospitals cannot turn anyone away for any type of care - and are suffering monetarily for providing indigent care (thus, higher health care costs for all.) So I do agree that there are some things that need to be fixed (more in some states, less in others) but this bill is not it.
    ~Amy~ - 35th trip to Aruba: New Years Eve 2017/2018 -- Zihuatanejo, MX: March 2018 -- Ireland: June/July 2018 -- 36th trip to Aruba: Sept. 2018




  5. #15
    Senior Member purestone2004's Avatar
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    I guess one of the complaints I heard this morning was this was going to "force" people to get insurance. But if some are not getting it but using the system would this not solve that? now I am not talking about those who would be in the USA illegally. I was very sick in Canada when I was a "legal" immigrant and the system took very good care of me. Of course my parents were paying taxes which makes the circle complete as that pays for our health care. I thank you for some clarity but it is obviously a very complicated issue, too complicated for my little brain. I think I will just have to stay in my little tax high bubble and thank the health care system that has always been there for my family.

  6. #16
    Senior Member danadog56's Avatar
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    Purestone 2004,
    One of the biggest problems with health care provided for all is that (IMOO) we that work must pay for those that don't. Although we do that now it will be worse if we have to pay for all that do not work and depend on government welfare to take care of them. I understand and feel bad for families that are just getting by and are unable to pay for health care. I assume others feel the same way in that matter. It is the folks that abuse the system that we have to support that is the issue.
    Also using the ER as your family doctor is taxing for the system as well as our pockets since it causes health care to go up steadily.
    I agree that reform needs to be accomplished, but how is the problem. As a Canadian you have always had healthcare provide by the government and we as Americans have to figure out how to do that without paying so much for it we suffer somewhere else in our households.....keep tuning in and we will see what happens....
    might have to move to Aruba.......wonder how their health care is provided...????
    ARUBA....HOME AWAY FROM HOME

  7. #17
    Senior Member SanNic44's Avatar
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    Many of my friends in Aruba travel to Colombia and the US (as well as Venezuela and other places) for various types of care, including routine annual checkups, dental, heart surgery, and so on. Aruba has AZV, which is supposed to be supported by a payroll tax. It is continually in the red.

    The divisiveness in the political conversation is now permanent to healthcare because when it is government administered and operated it becomes a zero-sum game. What one person receives detracts from another's possibility to receive. For example, a master plan must be created to determine how many dollars will be budgeted for a given type of care, say heart surgery. What happens when that money is spent yet there are more patients? This happens in every centralized system because it is IMPOSSIBLE to account for all the needs under a single plan. Someone must be denied or delayed care, OR, the government must reach into another person's pocket to pay the additional monies required. This is a reality that occurs every day and is a manufactured issue, the result of government administration. In a private system, people are free to better their lot through open exchange. They can pick and choose what they want or don't want and thereby maximize their potential satisfaction. Of course, this involves active participation, diligent research, and a bit of self-starting, which to some is not pleasant compared to sitting back and letting Big Brother take care of it all.

    A person may claim that he can not afford coverage, (and some people who are friends and live near me were quite vocal about it). Well, I called Independence Blue Cross (near PHL) in early February and found several plans around or below $400 per month that are decent, that cover existing conditions after a year, and offer some prescription coverage, too, not to mention a huge network of doctors and care facilities. Then I went for several walks, all a length of about 10-15 minutes from my house. I found quite a few entry level jobs that paid minimum wage, were part time (incl. weekends and nights), and required no skills (on the job training to move up the ladder if the candidate desires.) So, I forwarded all this info to my pals and told them if they worked two shifts a week, they could buy healthcare from a reputable company and have much less to worry about AND they wouldn't be thrown on the mercy of others or government. They didn't like the fact that they would have to put in those extra hours. They wanted it at "NO COST" to them. How, exactly, that works, I'm not sure because sooner or later, the taxes creep down in the form of value added taxes (think BBO in Aruba, VAT in Europe) payroll taxes and so on. Or, should fairy dust be used to pay for services and products?

    Finally...
    Why is "for profit" a bad thing in health care? In fact, why is profit "bad" in anything? Is it right that farmers make a profit selling crops that feed people? We all have to eat, don't we? If we took away the profit, food would be cheaper, or would it?

    Profit is the return on investment that leads to future production, innovation, and development. Without it, things stagnate and decline. Think 20th Century Soviet Union. We all know how good their medical facilities were.

    Whatever your political philosophy, it is important to examine the realistic implications with an objective eye. If you want government control, fine, just be aware of the consequences.

    Be well.

    44
    Aruba's Novelist in Residence (sometimes)
    http://www.bentpage.wordpress.com/

  8. #18
    Senior Member danadog56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanNic44 View Post
    Many of my friends in Aruba travel to Colombia and the US (as well as Venezuela and other places) for various types of care, including routine annual checkups, dental, heart surgery, and so on. Aruba has AZV, which is supposed to be supported by a payroll tax. It is continually in the red.

    The divisiveness in the political conversation is now permanent to healthcare because when it is government administered and operated it becomes a zero-sum game. What one person receives detracts from another's possibility to receive. For example, a master plan must be created to determine how many dollars will be budgeted for a given type of care, say heart surgery. What happens when that money is spent yet there are more patients? This happens in every centralized system because it is IMPOSSIBLE to account for all the needs under a single plan. Someone must be denied or delayed care, OR, the government must reach into another person's pocket to pay the additional monies required. This is a reality that occurs every day and is a manufactured issue, the result of government administration. In a private system, people are free to better their lot through open exchange. They can pick and choose what they want or don't want and thereby maximize their potential satisfaction. Of course, this involves active participation, diligent research, and a bit of self-starting, which to some is not pleasant compared to sitting back and letting Big Brother take care of it all.

    A person may claim that he can not afford coverage, (and some people who are friends and live near me were quite vocal about it). Well, I called Independence Blue Cross (near PHL) in early February and found several plans around or below $400 per month that are decent, that cover existing conditions after a year, and offer some prescription coverage, too, not to mention a huge network of doctors and care facilities. Then I went for several walks, all a length of about 10-15 minutes from my house. I found quite a few entry level jobs that paid minimum wage, were part time (incl. weekends and nights), and required no skills (on the job training to move up the ladder if the candidate desires.) So, I forwarded all this info to my pals and told them if they worked two shifts a week, they could buy healthcare from a reputable company and have much less to worry about AND they wouldn't be thrown on the mercy of others or government. They didn't like the fact that they would have to put in those extra hours. They wanted it at "NO COST" to them. How, exactly, that works, I'm not sure because sooner or later, the taxes creep down in the form of value added taxes (think BBO in Aruba, VAT in Europe) payroll taxes and so on. Or, should fairy dust be used to pay for services and products?

    Finally...
    Why is "for profit" a bad thing in health care? In fact, why is profit "bad" in anything? Is it right that farmers make a profit selling crops that feed people? We all have to eat, don't we? If we took away the profit, food would be cheaper, or would it?

    Profit is the return on investment that leads to future production, innovation, and development. Without it, things stagnate and decline. Think 20th Century Soviet Union. We all know how good their medical facilities were.

    Whatever your political philosophy, it is important to examine the realistic implications with an objective eye. If you want government control, fine, just be aware of the consequences.

    Be well.

    44
    44,
    well said.

    In March of last year I had to go to Calgary to assist some sales reps for my company. The rep there was telling me how they did not have a lot of surgeries (cataract) scheduled because the monies divided out for health care was used up and thus no left for eye surgery and the people that needed it would have to wait till next year for theirs....If this is what is going to happen with gov't health care we are all in trouble....
    ARUBA....HOME AWAY FROM HOME

  9. #19
    Junior Member Dicentra's Avatar
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    This does not make US healthcare into a single-payer system such as SanNic describes. Mostly it makes health insurance coverage mandatory and provides subsidies for those who cannot afford it. As far as "those who work paying for those who don't"; I think that already happens with Medicaid. The bill is very similar to what we already have in Massachusetts (thanks to Republican Mitt Romney, incidentally).

  10. #20
    Senior Member SanNic44's Avatar
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    I will not put a label (Rep or Dem) on this bill or any other. Why does that matter? Legislation is not a fashion statement.

    The point is: mandatory coverage=no freedom. Similarly, a single-payer system is on the horizon. How? All the government has to do is "mandate" a given package then "mandate" no rate increases to pay for it. Both of these things are currently and publicly discussed. Result=insurance companies go bankrupt. Next result=single payer administrated by government. Why? Government destroyed the competition, i.e. private sector. (For an entertaining example of this think back to when the gangsters ran the numbers business. They're about all gone. Why? The government created the "lottery" with bigger payouts and wonderful sounding "benefits" paid for by the proceeds. Healthcare will go the same route.)

    Consider this "mandatory coverage" for a little while. The government is empowering itself to force a citizen to buy something. So what happens if the government says you "must" buy a health care package you don't want? What if you refuse? Are you going to jail? A fine? Something else? This is a very serious question. The government is effectively taking control of your person and the life sustained by it. The citizen is subject to the control of the provisions spelled out by the mandate, which may or may not be in a given person's best interest or chosen interest. The ability to decide is removed from the citizen unless the citizen departs his own country for another to seek care. Today this may sound abstract. Yet, in a few years time, there will be regulators, typically boards, agencies, and such, that will reach "determinations." That is, they will issue rulings that allocate resources. The results of their management or mis-management will erode the current level of quality and quantity of care delivered. That's when today's bill will become hard facts that a citizen will face from a new perspective, one that allows ever fewer alternatives. Without alternatives, there is no freedom, and without freedom there can be no ascendancy of the human condition. History proves the concept.

    As I said before, it doesn't matter to me what type of "system" any person desires. Simply be clear about what that system delivers and how it delivers it. How it will directly affect you and yours.

    44
    Aruba's Novelist in Residence (sometimes)
    http://www.bentpage.wordpress.com/

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